Thankyou so much for your very informative reply Pat, the baptism looks right - the reason the family is hard to trace is that they were Romany Gypsies, as were the Lovells, so they never stayed in one place long and sometimes weren't recorded on censuses because they were on their travels; that's how they ended up in Caernarvonshire, North Wales. Robert and Edwin were indeed her sons, as were John 1847 born in Tenby, S. Wales, ( my husband's great-grandfather ) Uriah, Seth. Noah, Adolphus, Moti, Eldorai and Israel - the last 3 named are probably not the names they were recorded by as I can find no trace of their births, deaths and marriages; I know of their existence only through Romany archive material in Liverpool University. They ( Nathaniel and Sarah ) also had a daughter Lily. I've seen Nathan's birth put at anywhere between 1818 and 1825 - probably c. 1820, and Sarah Scamp's birth as 1925 through to 1934. Nathaniel is supposed to be the son of Durant Lovell from the Bristol area but no-one can elaborate on this. Sorry if I've bored you rigid! Gillian.