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Does anyone know where San Nicolas Ranch is?

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Re: Does anyone know where San Nicolas Ranch is?

MexicoMeg  (View posts) Posted: 19 Oct 2009 12:22AM GMT
Classification: Query
The Wislizenus book is a fascinating look at an often understudied part of Mexico... and of Mexican history. That said, you must understand that the writer certainly had all the views and prejudices of his day, but it is still one of the few easily obtainable documents in English on this part of Mexico.

This is a journal of his travels, and, as such, is arranged by date. About May 10, 1847, he and his companions leave Mapimi and head into what is now called the state of Coahuila. Two days later, he writes the following:

"May 12. -- Starting this morning for San Juan, our vanguard discovered three armed Mexicans running from us. After a short steeple-chase through the chapparal, the Mexicans were made prisoners, and, as no plausible account could be elicited from them, taken along to our night camp in San Juan Bautista, a ranch on the Nasas [today spelled Nazas], 15 miles from San Lorenzo. The road to-day was sandy, and mountin chains towards west, south, and east. The Nasas contained here plenty of running water again.

"As we shall leave the river at this place, I will communicate what I could ascertain from Mexicans in relation to its course further down. The river takes from here a generally southern direction. About five or six leagues below San Juan there is another and the last settlement on its banks, called San Nicolas; from there it runs yet about eight or ten leagues, till it spreads out at last into the Laguna de Tlagualila [today spelled Tlahualilo], a lake of fresh water, but without outlet. In the dry season, this lake often contains no water, while in others it forms a sheet of water of thirty and more leagues in its greatest dimensions, from south to north. Some branches of the lake bear particular names, as Laguna de San Nicolas, de las Aguas, de los Muertos, etc., but the general name is lake Tlagualila. The deonomination lake Cayman is quite unknown to Mexicans...."

[I know that at one point, the Rio Nazas changed its course significantly, so this description may vary from current conditions. See http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/matas-romero/mexico-an... for a description of this event).

In the next post, I'll post a bit about the "Indians" encountered near here.

Re: Does anyone know where San Nicolas Ranch is?

MexicoMeg  (View posts) Posted: 19 Oct 2009 12:49AM GMT
Classification: Query
On to the topic of "Indians" and others' views of them:

Although the priest could have been "anti-female," it might be more likely that he was not particularly disposed toward some of the native peoples..."

Again, from Wislizenus' book:

"May 13. -- ...."I had been riding ahead this morning, and reached Pozo early, though not in time to take part in a skirmish between our vanguard and a party of Indianas. When I arrived, some Mexicans were engaged in lazoing several dead bodies of Indians and dragging them into a heap together. The skirmish had taken place under the following circumstances: Two days before, a party of Lipan Indians, upon one of their predatory excursions, had stolen from a hacienda near Parras several hundred mules and horses, and killed several men. The proprietor of the hacienda, Don Manuel de Ibarra, applied to Captain Ried, of our regiment, (who was then ahead of us with Lieut. Colonel Mitchell's party,) for aid against these Indians. The captain, one of our most gallant officers, took but eight men along, and, accompanied by the Don himself, went back to el Pozo, where the Indianas, on their march to the mountains, had to pass, being the only watering place in that neighborhood. There they hid themselves in a corral, to wait for the arrival of the Indiana. Quite unexpected, about 20 men or our vanguard came very early this morning to el Pozo, and increased their party to 30 men. Soon afterwards the Indians appeared -- from 40 to 50 warriors. When our men rushed on horseback out of the corral to attack them, the Indians (probably supposing them to be Mexicans) received them with sneering and very contemptuous provocations, and their confidence in their bows and arrows was increased when the Americans, firing their rifles from horseback, killed none at the first charge. But as soon as our men alighted, and took good aim with their rifles, the Indians fell on all sides. Nevertheless, they fought most desperately, and did not retire till half of them were either dead or wounded. But at last they had to run for their lives, and to leave all their dead and all their booty behind. Besides the stolen stock, thirteen prisoners, Mexican women and children, whom they had carried along, were retaken and released from the brutality of their savage masters. Fifteen Indiana were lying dead on the field... Most of the dead Indians had fine blankets; some even carried gold; all were armed with bows and arrow, and a few with elegant shields of leather; and the 'medicine man,' who was foremost in the action, and fought most bravely, wore a head-dress of feathers and horns. Our men, of course, took of these curiosities whatever they liked....The fallen Indians were all of medium size, but well proportioned and very muscular; their skulls and faces bore all the characteristics of the Indian race, but their skin looked whiter than I have ever seen it in Indians.... In relation to the tribe of Lipans, I could only ascertain from the Mexicans that they live in the mountains of the Bolson [of Mapimi], extend their stealing and robbing excursions very far south, and have the reputation of being a most brutal and cruel set of Indians, though brave in battle."

So, it could be that these were the people referred to as "Yndios." This part of northern Mexico contained much bitter and brutal fighting between native peoples, displaced tribes, and Spanish/Mexican/American settlers as it was a land with few resources... said resources being needed by all of these groups at the same time. For a great history of the larger region, see Paul Horgan's "Great River: The Rio Grande in North American History." You can use his index to skip around to find sections that describe life during various time periods, particularly if you check out "Coahuila" and then read a few pages before and after each citation.

Finally, although I am no fan of bloody fiction, for an indication of what life was like in the Texas/Mexico border in the 1850s (and it wouldn't have been any happier a century before), see Cormac McCarthy's "Blood Meridian; Or the Evening Redness of the West." There was a reason that these parts of Mexico remained unsettled and "wild" for centuries.... and maybe why the Priest wasn't too worried about listing a last name for poor Razo.

Hope all this helps....

Re: Does anyone know where San Nicolas Ranch is?

Ernie_Alderete  (View posts) Posted: 19 Oct 2009 3:17PM GMT
Classification: Query
Surnames: Ramirez Romo Morales Razo Velis Rodriguez
You hope this helps?

It's a home run! Much more information than I ever expected to glean.

I agree completely with your theory, and conclusions.

I'm amazed you tracked down San Nicolas, and tied it all together.

I deeply appreciate your hard work:)

Re: Does anyone know where San Nicolas Ranch is?

MexicoMeg  (View posts) Posted: 19 Oct 2009 3:23PM GMT
Classification: Query
No problem.... I have a couple of really, really tough genealogical roadblocks and someday I hope I'll find someone who holds the key. So, I figure if I know how much I need that "someone", if I can be that "someone" for another person, I'm more than happy to do so.

Re: Does anyone know where San Nicolas Ranch is?

Ernie_Alderete  (View posts) Posted: 19 Oct 2009 3:49PM GMT
Classification: Query
Is there any way to find out Razo's full name?

Since both parents are listed in the May 4, 1796 baptismal record of their son, Jose Ascension Ramirez, it is reasonable to infer that they were indeed married.

But I haven't been able to locate a marriage record.

Nor records of any additional births that might have Razo's full name.

I think you have eliminated the possibility that Razo and Juan Ysidro Ramirez were Tlaxcallans, as those were not hostile Indians at the time.

I would think that Lipan Indian vital records are scarce.

Re: Does anyone know where San Nicolas Ranch is?

MexicoMeg  (View posts) Posted: 19 Oct 2009 3:58PM GMT
Classification: Query
Hmmm.... I would check that link to the Texas Archives and see if there might be any records (or personnel) there that would help you. Many records for northern Mexico are actually located in Texas, and since you can do your searching in English there (or at least talk/write to someone in English), you might be able to at least figure out if something might be available. If that fails, then I would try to find a researcher located in Coahuila who might be able to check those Parras archives for you. Of course, as you can gather, besides the destruction that happened during the Mexican revolution, there were numerous situations that might also contribute to lost records -- burned churches, Catholic orders or priests dismissed or moved, etc., etc. Or, if you're the adventurous type, a trip to Parras yourself might be in order! It really is an interesting small city in northern Mexico with loads of history. The book that I referenced about the Rio Grande actually gives a quite good picture of what a priest's life in northern Mexico/current US southwest was like, so you might want to look through that to get a better idea of why the records might be scarce/non-existant. But, just when you think there wouldn't be records, one might turn up. So, I wouldn't give up all hope -- just might take a bit of time and digging....

Re: Does anyone know where San Nicolas Ranch is?

Ernie_Alderete  (View posts) Posted: 19 Oct 2009 4:28PM GMT
Classification: Query
I'm bilingual.
The Texas Archives have proven useless. Only Texans have full access to their services, and I'm in California.
The head of the Coahuila Archives promised to look it up for me, but that was years ago, and no results.

I do want to visit Coahuila. See Parras, San Nicolas, Rio Nuevo.

The other baptismal records preceding, and following my ancestor's list both parents. But it's no mistake, it is clearly an intentional omission.

Odd that the priest would name the witnesses and their hometown, but provide scant information on the parents. The parents were probably also from San Nicolas. Their son, and grandson remained in Parras all their lives.

Their great grandson, Jose Mateo Ramirez, finally moved north to Texas in the mid 1870s. I know Jose Mateo and bride Maria Silvestra Romo Ybarra from Rio Nuevo settled in Brownsville with their baby, Victoriano Ramirez Romo.

My great grandfather, Victoriano went on to be fluent in seven languages, owned several pharmacies, and invented what is now Vaseline Petroleum Jelly.

Thanks for all your help:)


Re: Does anyone know where San Nicolas Ranch is?

MexicoMeg  (View posts) Posted: 19 Oct 2009 4:36PM GMT
Classification: Query
Wow... sorry to hear that the Texas archives have not been helpful.... from looking for other information, it always appeared that they had a treasure trove. I wonder if you can find a Texas resident who could help? There is a wonderful hotel/restaurant in Parras (plus a resort type place) and I think you would greatly enjoy visiting. Of course, then there are the wineries and historic churches, etc. Being bilingual you should have no trouble with at least speaking with someone at the archives there...maybe that will be the best way to go! Perhaps sharing how your great grandfather (with family roots in Parras) went on to "fame and fortune" would encourage a bit more cooperation. Most towns anywhere in the world like to claim "famous sons"... even if that "son" is actually three or four generations removed. Good luck on your search!

Re: Does anyone know where San Nicolas Ranch is?

Ernie_Alderete  (View posts) Posted: 19 Oct 2009 6:57PM GMT
Classification: Query
Are you a researcher?

You know more than most professionals. I've worked with the top expert on Indians in Texas and Coahuila here in Los Angeles, but you know more than him.

If you know a good researcher in the Parras/San Nicolas area, please let me know.

Re: Does anyone know where San Nicolas Ranch is?

MexicoMeg  (View posts) Posted: 22 Oct 2009 12:07PM GMT
Classification: Query
Actually, I'm not a reasearcher at all.... or even a very good genealogist! I just was intrigued by the history of Torreon (and northern Mexico) when I moved here almost six years ago and have read everything I can find on the area. Also... just got a notice about new church records for Coahuila, Mexico uploaded on this site. Again, a stretch... but maybe it can help.... (if the link doesn't work, it's new Catholic church records for the state of Coahuila, Mexico for the years 1627-1978

http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#...
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