Plantagenet - Family History & Genealogy Message Board

Re: Plantagenet line

cewood — 2012-05-19 17:56:39Z

Joan FitzAlan (~1345-19 Apr 1419) m. Humphrey X de Bohun, 2nd Earl of Northampton (15 Mar 1342-16 Jan 1373). She was daughter of Richard, Cropped Hat, FitzAlan and Eleanor of Lancaster.

Joan FitzAlan de Arundel (~1375-1 Sep 1404) m. William de Brienne (~1359-22 Sep 1395). She was daughter of John FitzAlan, 1st Lord Arundel, and Eleanor Maltravers. She was granddau. of Richard, Cropped Hat, FitzAlan.

The younger Joan was niece of the first Joan.

Plantagenet line

shawnuhall — 2012-05-19 04:15:48Z

I am so confused. Can anybody please help me to figure out Joan FitzAlan. I have seen that she was married to:Humphrey de Bohun and never remarried. Then I have also see that she was also married to: William De Bryan. Can anybody please clear this up for me. I am stuck right here at can't seem to connect my family due to the confusion.

Agnes Mackworth birth date

rddlscofield — 2012-04-15 20:04:50Z

Two dates seem well-known for Agnes (daughter of Richard Mackworth and Dorothy Cranage). They are the date of her marriage to first husband Richard Watts (1580 or 1582) and her death date in Boston, Mass. (1670). Some birth dates listed in family trees show her married and giving birth prior to her supposed birth date. If some of the birth dates were used, she'd be giving birth to the children by her second husband well into her old age.

Is there any record, anywhere, of her actual or approximate birth date?

Re: Elizabeth Plantagenet daughter of King Edward 1

jeanmarytennant — 2012-03-15 14:13:29Z

Hi i too am decended from elizabeth plantagenet wife of humphrey de bohun in ancestry i have our family tree which may have some interest for you best wishes.

Re: Plantagenet Society

betsybugs — 2011-10-05 19:29:13Z

Plantagenent Society is a descendency group. Thier website is:

http://www.brookfieldpublishingmedia.com/PLAN/PLAN.aspx

Re: Mary Plantagenet and Thomas Reade of Barton Court

trdun08 — 2011-09-21 16:57:21Z

Thomas Reade of Barton Court Oxfod IS NOT the ancestor of any of these people, The Family at Barton and Ipsden is very clearly recorded and proved in many eminent and authoritative sources, The most accessible being in Burkes Peerage and Baronetage also in Landed Gentry. To make it clear William Rede buried 1540 by Dorothy Beaomont his wife had Thomas Rede [of Barton] Married Anne Hoo, he died 1556 leaving an only son Thomas Reade of Barton who married Mary Stonehouse from Kent, Thomas died 1604 leaving [with other children] an eldest son Sir Thomas Reade Kt of Barton [a third so Richard who`s son Charles was ancestor to George Read the "Signer" of the Declaration of Independence.] 1575-1650, Sir Thomas married 1598 Mary Brockett , The were ancestor to the Reade`s of Ipsden and Baronets of Shipton and Baronets of Brockett Hall as well as my Family the Reade`s of Rossenarra Ireland. ALL the early generations of the Rede/Reade Family of Barton are Interned in the Rede Vault at St Helens Church Abingdon Oxfordshire. This I hope FINALLY clears up the situation of Thomas Reade of Barton and ALL postings on this and other sites should now be amended or removed, T Reade-Duncan.

Re: John Welles and Cecily of York

wadergirl — 2011-09-20 14:17:23Z

Yeah, thats kind of been my conclusion as well, but I've had almost no time to look into the Welles line lately. Maybe I just need another kick in the pants. :)

Re: John Welles and Cecily of York

txfromwi — 2011-09-20 01:17:37Z

Same here on my wife's family line, she comes back through Robert, b. 1484 and then, well, wouldn't it be fun for all of us if Robert's parents were really John and Cicely. What a royal family we would all be!

I found this source a while ago and again tonight, this source claims the missing link we are discussing.
http://en.rodovid.org/wk/Person:144382

However, I tend to think that Burke's Peerage is a more reliable source. So I guess it's back to work in the morning!

Dan

Re: Hello, needing help with very unlikely (yet possible) Edward IV descent

BeverlyJett39 — 2011-09-15 21:43:15Z

Monty, like you, I am a descendant of Edward I--with all of those kides there must be plenty of us. (My line is his daughter Elizabeth's.)

I too am stumpted with Ann Lumpkins (b. circa 1564 and the wife of Edward Howe). Did they have a daughter Frances Howes (with an "s" on the end)? She married Edward Fitz Randolph.

Thanks!

B.

Re: My Plantagenet lines.

jayswith — 2011-08-24 18:37:18Z

ker700

To answer your question ("Do you have info on the parents of William I, the Conqueror?"), Richard III, the 5th Duke of Normandy married Adelaide Capet but they had no children (they were married less than a year prior to his death (d.s.p. legit.)). Duke Richard III had by an unknown mistress(along with an illegitimate son) two natural daughters, Alice who married Ranulph I, Viscount of the Bessin and an unnamed daughter who married Geoffrey de Neufmarche. Richard III's widow, Adelaide Capet, married 2ndly, Baldwin V ‘de Lille’, count of Flanders and the two of them were the parents of Matilda of Flanders, wife of William the Conqueror. As evidence of how poorly thought out the Sinclair story was, if William HAD been the son of Richard III and Adelaide Capet (which of course he wasn't), he and his wife Matilda would have been half-brother and sister! Wherever the Sinclair story originated it’s either the product of extremely poor historical research or blindly copying of what could be best described as a fictional account. As is well known and very easily verified:

“William the Conqueror—Duke William II of Normandy, King William I of England—was born at Falaise in 1027 or 1028, and probably during the autumn of the latter year. He was the bastard son of Robert I, sixth duke of Normandy, by Herleve, a girl of that town. His parentage was thus remarkable.” Quote from:

David C. Douglas, William the Conqueror, Univ. of California Press, Berkeley (1964), p. 15.
Jay

Re: Plantagenet and Beaumont (De Beaumont) families

jayswith — 2011-08-21 22:01:42Z

First, if there are no quality sources cited (or no sources at all) the data can't be verified. So that's a major shortcoming just to begin with. For anyone trying to find their ancestry these kinds of web pages aren't helpful. While some of the errors in this particular case would be caught by consulting quality sources, others are more readily apparent. For example, take this account of Maud Beaumont. IF she were born "abt 1356" and died "3 July 1467" that would make her 111 years old at her death! Even more interesting is that she died 125 years after her supposed father (John de Beaumont d.in 1342). So we're asked to believe she was born 14 years AFTER her father and lived at least another 111 years! Given that a couple of good sources do confirm her death in 1467 it means she could not have been a daughter of Eleanor de Lancaster and her husband John de Beaumont. You don't have to look far to find more of these same kinds of errors. Hope this helps. Jay

Re: Plantagenet and Beaumont (De Beaumont) families

parker102 — 2011-08-18 16:47:40Z

All right granted nothing is source cited. But I still do not see any errors. Do you have to look all this up to tell? I see other internet pages with this same info. where else should i be looking?

Parker

Re: Plantagenet and Beaumont (De Beaumont) families

jayswith — 2011-08-17 03:30:27Z

You're correct, Eleanor, daughter of Henry, 3rd Earl of Lancaster did marry Sir John de Beaumont, 2nd Lord Beaumont. And she was a member of the Plantagenet family (dynasty). I wouldn't recommend the page you linked to, however, way too many errors (including Eleanor's supposed surname) and no source citations. Jay

Re: Plantagenet and Beaumont (De Beaumont) families

kd9032005 — 2011-08-05 04:56:32Z

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tatro/gp16...

John De BEAUMONT and Eleanor PLANTAGENET were married

Re: Plantagenet genealogy (Edward I)

skibran — 2011-05-17 20:40:05Z

Thanks again! I live near Chicago, where we have the Newberry Library--great place with about every history and genealogy book known to man, unfortunately, you have to read them there. There are other major research libraries throughout the US, possibly through a local university.

Re: Plantagenet genealogy (Edward I)

jayswith — 2011-05-17 19:45:20Z

If you're looking to check out these books from your library (wherever that is) and they don't have them, there are a couple of ways you can locate books. In most cases you can request the book at your local library through the ILL (Interlibrary Loan System). Most US as well as UK libraries have such a system and the book is located and sent to your library for you to check out. In my system here there is a fee of $3 per book and you're allowed to check a book out for three weeks.

Most of us are closer to or belong to one library but usually find there are several libraries within a reasonable distance. So first I would look at WorldCat: http://www.worldcat.org/ Once at WorldCat enter the title of the book (I checked already and all the books I mentioned are listed on WorldCat). Then, click on the list title and it shows you libraries in your area that hold this book.

You also probably have a Family History Center near you. Their libraries vary tremendously between one branch and the next, but if a book is available on microfilm (they have readers in each center) you can order it and read it in their library (most are able to copy pages for you). Go to: http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhc/frameset_fhc.asp and enter your location information to find one or more near you.

Still another way to obtain one or more of these books is to find and buy used copies. Bookfinder.com can locate these books from thousands of booksellers and often they're fairly cheap (depending on demand and condition). They list both new and used copies. I just ran "Frederick Lewis Weis" as the author and "Ancestral Roots" as the title and got numerous hits. The best price I found on a used copy was $10.74 (US). Elizabeth Hallam's "Chronicles of the Age of Chivalry, is also a bargain. Best price I found is $3.95 (the seller says minimal damage to cover and binding). Unfortunately, two of the books I mentioned are rarer and/or have higher demand running the price up. Moriarty's "Plantagenet Ancestry," and Faris' Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists" are both pricey (over $100 when I checked). So all told there are several ways in which to get access to these books. I hope this helps. Jay

Re: Plantagenet genealogy (Edward I)

wexler155 — 2011-05-17 18:40:00Z

If it was a tough question you gave a really good answer. I am also trying to find connections to the Plantagenets. I called and none of these are on the shelf at my local library. How do I find them? Thanks

Re: Plantagenet genealogy (Edward I)

skibran — 2011-05-17 04:42:33Z

Thank you so much! This ought to keep me busy for a while. It has been difficult knowing which sources can be trusted, I'm not sure I trust the books that led me from my known family into the royal line back to Edward I. Maybe some that you suggested will include what I am looking for. Thanks.

Re: Plantagenet genealogy (Edward I)

jayswith — 2011-05-16 18:00:15Z

Were it only that easy… You asked a really tough question. Although your heading says Edward I, it seems you are asking about the history and genealogy of the royal family he was a key member of. Also, regarding History and genealogy, while they do overlap are really two distinct disciplines.

There are excellent books on the entire Plantagenet or Angevin dynasty which concentrate primarily on the successive kings themselves, then there are books covering parts of the family focusing on, for example, the three Edwards (I, II, and III). Finally there are books on individual kings like Edward I. OK, for the Plantagenet dynasty you might want to start with one like, “The Chronicles of the Age of Chivalry,” edited by Elizabeth Hallam, CLB, 1998. It’s a good, well-written approach to the dynasty based on translations of early chronicles and manuscripts, and it has an excellent bibliography to follow up on. For Edward I you should read Marc Morris, “A Great and Terrible King; Edward I and the Forging of Britain,” Hutchinson, 2008. This is an authoritative and particularly well-balanced approach to Edward and helps dispel some of the misconceptions created by other writers and especially modern filmmakers. Edward I ‘Longshanks’ has been painted as an evil vindictive tyrant but in truth he was a very well-respected king who some call the ideal monarch for his time. As with all books of this type, use the bibliography to find more works on this subject.

As for the genealogy, again you’ll need to consult a number of references. There are a considerable number of books on the Plantagenets but you need to be careful; while many are quality works not all of them are. Each rests on its own merits, the quality of its research, and the quality of its sources. You need to evaluate each; or obtain help in evaluating them until you learn how to do this yourself. Some books cover the dynasty while others follow lines of descent from Edward I to colonial Americans. An example of the later would be David Faris, “Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists, Second Edition, NEHGS, 1999. I realize there is a newer version, which I’m familiar with, but I’d recommend David Faris’s work to start out with. Also see Frederick Lewis Weis, “Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists,” Seventh Edition, GPC, 1992. Again, it too has a newer edition by a different author, the Eighth Edition, but in this particular case the seventh edition is easier to find in libraries. A more difficult work to find but which concentrates more on their ancestry is by George Andrews Moriarty, ”The Plantagenet Ancestry of King Edward III and Queen Philippa,” MPGS, 1985. It’s handwritten, in table format, and we could wish for better source citations, but it’s essentially accurate. Also Moriarty was a leading authority on this family. I realize I’ve left out far more works than I’ve included but see if this doesn’t get you started.
Jay

Plantagenet genealogy (Edward I)

skibran — 2011-05-16 02:19:42Z

Hi, I'd like a recommendation for best book with genealogy/history of this royal family. Thanks all!

Re: Plantagenet and Beaumont (De Beaumont) families

jayswith — 2011-05-01 23:25:10Z

The thing is, none of them said her name was Mabel Talvas. Its important to follow-up all source citations to see what each actually says. While these particular sources do provide much of the information found for generation 1 of this line, they didn’t provide all of it. Here is what each says regarding Mabel:

CP III: 427-7 (should read pages 427-8 and Mabel is mentioned on page 428) calls her “Mabel, da. and h. of William, Seigneur d'Alencon and Belleme.”

CP XI, 686 refers to her as “Mabel, da. and h. of William Talvas (5th s. of William de Belleme, seigneur of Belleme and Alencon)…” (I cited this same page earlier in this thread).

Moriarty, The Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 44 calls her “Mabel, dau. of William ‘Talvas’ Seigneur de Belleme and Alencon…” Note Moriarty has the name Talvas in quotation marks indicating it is a nickname.

ES III/4 Tafel 637 (Les Sires de MONTGOMMERY &c.) begins with Mabel’s husband, Roger de Montgomery, but she is not mentioned in this table. She’s actually found on tafel 636 (Les Sires de Belleme), on the previous page with a note to continue her line on tafel 637. Her information from tafel 636 reads (in German): “Mabile (Aimable) de Belleme, dame de Alencon, et de Sees 1070 Dame de Pelleme et du Saonnis, erbaut la Roche-Mabile, erm Chatteau du Bures-sur-Dives.”
Translation: Mabel de Belleme, Dame de Alencon, de Sees, (and) in 1070 Dame de Pelleme and du Saonnis, built la Roche-Mabile, murdered (at) Chatteau du Bures-sur-Dives.

ES III/4 Tafel 694B (Die FAMILIE des BISCHOFS ODO von BAYEUX) does not even mention Mabel.

One more thing, William and Kathleen Beale are listed as the authors of AR8. Douglas Richardson was one of the contributors to earlier Ancestral Roots editions and he is acknowledged as such in at least thirty lines in the newer edition. But as his name appears throughout the book it’s an easy mistake. Anyway, see if this doesn’t help clear up the question regarding Mabel’s name. Jay

Re: Plantagenet and Beaumont (De Beaumont) families

parker102 — 2011-04-30 03:05:36Z

Ancestral Roots, by Richardson on page 175 in line 187 number 1. has Roger de Montgomery Earl of Shrewsbery married to Mabel TALVAS and that her father was William Talvas Lord of Belleme, Seigneur of Alencon. It has excellent citations to CP III:427-7, XI: 686; Moriarty, The Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 44, ES III.4/637, 694B to back up these facts. Why would these excellent sources all say her surname was TALVAS and not Belleme?

Parker

Re: Plantagenet and Beaumont (De Beaumont) families

jayswith — 2011-04-29 22:42:13Z

‘Talvas’ was Willliam’s nickname, not a family name. Orderic Vitalis claimed that he was so named for his “hardness”, while White, in his article "First House of Belleme" (cited below), on p. 82 states that the nickname ‘Talvas’ used by several of this house meant ‘Shield’ presumably meaning as being hard as a shield or callous. At this particular time in Normandy there were no hereditary surnames so he’s best known in authoritative sources as William ‘Talvas,’ Sire de Belleme.

William ‘Talvas’ was married twice but his second wife (Hildeburga) Haberge De Beaumont was not the mother of Mabel de Belleme, his first wife Hildeburge was.

Schwennicke, Europaische Stammtafeln, Band III, Teleband 4 (1989), Tafel 636 shows Hildeburge, daughter of Arnoul, as William’s (here spelled Guillaume) first wife and mother of his son Arnoul, and daughter Mabel de Belleme. After her murder William secondly married Haberge de Beaumont, widow of Tesselin de Montevrault and daughter of Raoul IV de Beaumont, Viscount of Maine

Cokayne, The Complete Peerage, vol xi (1949) p. 686 states: “He [Roger de Montgomery] m., 1stly, probably between 1050 and 1054, (1) Mabel, da. and h. of William Talvas (5th s. of William de Belleme, seigneur of Bellfime and Alencon), by his 1st wife, Hildeburg, da. of Arnulf, who has not been identified…"

Also see:
Transactions of the Royal Historical Society, 4th series, 22 (1940), Geoffrey Henllan White, The First House of Bellême, in: TRHS 4th Ser., 22, 1940, pp. 67-90 (available through JSTOR)

None of the sources I've seen show Haberge de Beaumont as having any children by William 'Talvas.' Otherwise, your relationships to the de Montgomery and de Belleme families are the same as mine--except for Mabel's mother and also that Roger I, de Montgomery, Vicomte de Heimois, the progenitor of this Montgomery family was my 29th great grandfather, not 30th. Jay

Re: John Root and Mary Ann Russell

seanhinchen — 2011-04-27 12:47:39Z

Mary or Ann(e) Russell, born 18 Apr 1574, Badby, Northamptonshire, England married John Root on 23 Jul 1600, Badby, Northamptonshire, England.

Her parents were William RUSSELL and Anne FORESTER.

Her assumed father:

Francis William Russell, Lord Russell

Born 1553, Badby, Northamptonshire, England. Married 1st 15 Apr 1571 to Juliana Foster (dau. of Sir John Foster of Bamburgh). Married 2nd in Northamptonshire, England before 1572 to Ann Forester. Died 27 Jul 1585 at Hexpathgate. Some sources say 2nd marriage was 1573/8 and in Badby Parish of Northampton, England.

I've looked at a number of English genealogy sites, none seem to mention this second marriage to Ann Forester, let alone her daughter Ann(e) or Mary. Are there any contemporary American or English professional genealogists who have actually examined the local records in Badby, Northampton? How was it deducted that Anne(e) or Mary's father William was actually Francis William Russell, Lord Russell? There does not seem to be a marriage record for William and Ann (Forester) Russell, so how was that documented? What about Francis William Russell's will? Could there have been a totally different William and Ann Russell in the small village of Badby?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Plantagenet and Beaumont (De Beaumont) families

cedeez69 — 2011-04-27 00:12:25Z

I just looked at my family tree information and I noticed a Hildeburga De Beaumont, who married William De Talvas were my 27th great grandparents and also their daughter Mabel De Talvas who married Roger De Montgomery 26th great grandparents and also Roger Montgomery's family through Roger De Monte Gomeri, who was my 30th great grandparents. I hope that this helps??????

Re: Plantagenet and Beaumont (De Beaumont) families

jayswith — 2011-04-26 20:59:15Z

There is more than one de Beaumont family. The one mentioned previously in this thread, that of the Counts and Viscounts de Beaumont were married to members of the Plantagenet family. Henry I’s natural daughter Constance was married to Roscelin de Beaumont, Viscount of Maine. But a different Beaumont family, a member of which Sir Robert de Beaumont, 1st Earl of Leicester was Henry I’s 4th cousin.

When Robert died, his twin sons Robert and Walleran were raised in Henry’s court, while their sister, Isabel was one of Henry I’s mistresses. By king Henry she reputedly had two daughters Isabel and Maud. She married Gilbert fitz Gilbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke and as his widow, Henry de Montmorency, Constable of England. There are several later marriages between descendants of both de Beaumont families and both were related to the Plantagenet family. Is there a particular connection you were looking for to one or both these de Beaumont families?

Also, regarding your Skipworth question, this family is descended from Edward I by his second wife Marguerite de France as shown in David Faris, Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists, 2nd Edition, 1999, pp. 330-332. This is the work on which Richardson bases his later version so it should be in his book as well. Faris’s line goes from Edward I, King of England down to Henry Skipworth (1589-1658, created a Baronet of Prestwold in 1622 by James I of England. He married Amy Kempe (also a descendant of Edward I) and their children and grandchildren are also listed. Their son, Grey Skipwith, 3rd Baronet of Prestwold, setteled in Lancaster co. Virginia bef. 1680. Finally, there are several Montgomery families. I’d need more to go on before I could even start looking. Skipwith is distinctive enough to guess which one you might be asking about but there are any number of Montgomery families and/or branches so you’d need to be more specific. There are Montgomery families related to the Stewarts of Scotland and at least one Montgomery family related to the early Plantagenets of England. Roger ‘the Great,’ de Montgomery, sn de Montgomery (m. Joceline de Bolbec) was the 4th great grandfather of Eleanor of Aquitaine, Queen consort to Henry II, and therefore the direct ancestor of kings John ‘Lackland’, Henry III, Edward I, II, & III, et al. As for a particular later Montgomery, whether or not he was a descendant of one or more of the early Montgomery families would have to be checked or researched.

Jay

Re: Plantagenet and Beaumont (De Beaumont) families

williamwilliams362 — 2011-04-21 21:21:06Z

Hello

I've traced my paternal female line back from Annie Williams (nee Davies), to the Plantagenets. She was born in Newtown, Montgomeryshire, Wales, United Kingdom. I think that we may be able to go back even further. Small world isn't it !

I now live in Liverpool, UK, though I was born not far from where my grandmother came into the world.

Regards

T. Williams

Re: Plantagenet and Beaumont (De Beaumont) families

NancyHammons — 2011-04-16 16:56:58Z

I don't profess to know everything, but I have a book "Plantagenet Ancestry: A study in Colonial and Medieval Families" by Douglas Richardson, printed in 2004. This book has much more documented sources than I've seen elsewhere.

On page 82 begins Beaumont family. Under "Beaumont" is: HENRY II, King of England married ELEANOR of Aquitaine,
LEONOR (or Eleanor) of England, married ALFONSO VII, King of Castile,
BERENGUELA of Castile, Queen of Castile, married ALFONSO IX King of Leon,
BERENGERE of Castile-Leon married JEAN DE BRIENNE Count of Brienne.

Then it starts with;
6. LOUIS DE BRIENNE in right of his wife, Viconte of Beaumont. His wife was AGNES DE BEAUMONT. That's where the connection begins. Their grandson, John de Beaumont married Eleanor of Lancaster, great granddaughter of King Henry III.

There are several Skipwiths here. Katherine Fitzwilliam married John Skipwith, she was decended from Geoffrey Plantagenet.

I'm thinking it would just be easier for you to e-mail me, I don't have Skipwith but we have a common ancestor in Geoffrey's son Hamelin. My address is sandcrab@suddenlink.net

I bought this book at Amazon.com and it's loaded with wonderful information.

Plantagenet and Beaumont (De Beaumont) families

cedeez69 — 2011-04-12 22:21:20Z

I was wondering if anyone could please tell me, how the Beaumont and Plantagenet families are related? And if the Skipwith and Montgomery families are also related to Plantagenet families?

Re: Multiple Lines to Plantagenet

NancyHammons — 2011-04-02 00:26:19Z

I'm thinking it's pretty common. I have a book titled "Plantagenet Ancestry" by Douglas Richardson, and according to the well documented information he presents, my immigrant ancestors were Rev. John Maverick and Mary Gye. Mary directly decended from Henry III, Henry II, John of England (at least two mistresses)and Hamelin Plantagenet. I've been able to get a hold of a couple of other books that have the same information.

I think if you delve deeper you'll find yourselves laughing about it. Mary Gye's mother was decended from Henry II and her father was decended from King John, Henry III, Geoffery Plantagenet and get this John of England was Mary's 13th Great Grandfather AND her 11th Great Grand Uncle.

It's a wonder we are not all crazy the way cousins and cousins got together.

Happy Hunting!

Multiple Lines to Plantagenet

mkoller73 — 2011-03-31 15:58:51Z

I'm just curious about this. I've traced two of my lines to the Plantagenet family, and my wife has traced one. Is this common?

It seems like it's too much to be coincidental. Could many of the records be incorrect?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks.

Mary Plantagenet and Thomas Reade of Barton Court

ReedJ1231 — 2011-03-27 15:03:29Z

I recently came across a world tree that showed the parents of Captain John Reed(born Cornwall 1633 and died 1730 Norwalk, Connecticut) as Mary Plantagenet and Thomas Reade of Barton Court. It also shows John Reed's elder brother as Thomas Reade who came to Salem, Mass and married Mary Bigelow and had many children. The children of this marriage born in Salem, Massachusetts match up exactly with the the children from Thomas Reade of Salem and Mary Brice.

The problem is Thomas Reade of Barton Court was married to Mary Brockington and she did not die until 1654. Thomas Reade and Mary Brockington were married until his death in 1650. The two sons that were born to Mary Plantagenet and Thomas Reade of Barton Court(Thomas Reade: born 1626 and John Reed: born 1633) would have had to be illegitimate children or Thomas Reade would have had to been married to two wives at the same time.

This relationship between Mary Plantagenet and Thomas Reade of Barton Court seems plausible on several different levels(Associations between Plantagenet and Reade families, Reade estates in Cornwall, etc)

Does anyone have any sources for this relationship between Mary Plantagenet(1600-1665) and Thomas Reade of Barton Court that would provide more creedence to this relationship?

I am a descendant Captain John Reed of Norwalk, Connecticut
(Cpt John, John, Daniel, Abraham, Abraham, Isaac, Chalmers, William Thomas, Charles Richard, Edwin, James).

--Jim Reed

Re: Edward Plantagenet

NancyHammons — 2011-03-06 13:01:15Z

Edward the son of Richard and Cecily Neville was born on 28 April 1442. I don't know, but according to my calculator Cecily was 27 in 1442. Richard was born 21 Sept 1411 and Cecily on 3 May 1415. That would make them 13 and 9 when they married, but they were 31 and 27 in 1442.

Those dates come from "Plantagenet Ancestry" by Douglas Richardson

Re: John Welles and Cecily of York

kelejo1 — 2011-03-05 15:22:34Z

But here's another issue: Cecily & John Welles had 2 daughters, one of whom was Elizabeth who married Robert Welles. No where can I find that Cecily & John had any sons.

Re: My Plantagenet lines.

ker700 — 2011-02-24 21:06:23Z

Do you have info on the parents of William I, the Conqueror? Have seen several other names supposedly his parents, but I have a document by Niven Sinclair who researched the Domesday Book of William, and he states William's father was Richard III, 5th Duke of Normandy and Adela Capet.

"A St Clair descendant, Wildernus, (Walderne/Waldron) married a daughter of Richard, the fifth Duke of Normandy, father of William the Conqueror. One of Wildernus's sons, William St Clair, fought alongside his relative at the Battle of Hastings in 1066. And so the Sinclairs arrived in Britain."

Can you, or anyone else, clarify this?
Thanks

Re: Edward Atheling

emilg7831198 — 2011-01-12 14:16:35Z

Ran across your postings by accident and wanted to tell you take I found it helpful and very interesting.Edwar Atheling is my 41st greatgrandfather on my mothers side.Margaret being my 40th greatgrandmother.always great to find more info

Re: John of Gaunt & Katherine Swynford

troypix1 — 2010-12-12 04:40:56Z

Thanks, will check it out.
Barbara
pixleyblair.tribalpagescom

Re: John of Gaunt & Katherine Swynford

Amx1100 — 2010-12-11 23:28:53Z

Was there a meeting? If so, is there a published account of the forum.
How does one obtain the newsletter?
thank you for your post.
anita max

Re: Greetings Plantagenet cousins,

madscientist66 — 2010-10-10 05:12:34Z

Hi,

FTM follows the "path of least resistance" so to speak, so you're probably just seeing one of the many lines of ancestry that you have back to these people. That you have great grandparents in one line, that in another line are also uncles and aunties is nothing out of the ordinary.

Cheers.

Re: Dorothy Talbot decent

Pangela84 — 2010-10-04 07:50:38Z

P.S. Sorry I made a mistake. My direct ancestor, Matthew Boston married Hannah Scrimshire/Skrymsher but, she may also be reffered to as Ann in census information. Her parents are Henry Scrimshire and Sarah Colvill of England.

Cheers,

Angela

Re: Dorothy Talbot decent

Pangela84 — 2010-10-04 07:48:03Z

Hi Rebecca,

My mom is a BOSTON and I too was told that there is royal lineage in my blood
on my grandfather's side, BOSTON.

I have a Henry Boston who married a Sarah Scrimshire/Skrymsher.

They are both from England.

Hope your research goes well!! As far as my mom tells me, we are related to some duke who is a nephew or cousin of the queen. Something like that. But who knows!!! The other research is hard enough!!

Cheers,

Angela

Re: Greetings Plantagenet cousins,

FarmanBrooke1 — 2010-09-30 19:38:21Z

My favorite historical novel (more than 30 years old) was about "Katherine" de Roet who became my favorite heroine and I still have the book. Imagine my surprise when around 2000 I started researching my family and found that she and John of Gaunt were my 20th great grandparents. Of course that's only FTM 2008 and 2009. Now though the 3 Edward kings are great grandparents and John Beaufort is my great grandfather plus his daughter, Joan Beaufort m. to King James I Stewart of Scotland is are my great grandparents, FTM shows John as my uncle and Katherine as my uncles' wife. It also shows John's brother, Edmund of Langley, as my grandfather (through Constance Plantagenet). Can anyone explain this?

Re: John Welles and Cecily of York

rhiannonmann — 2010-08-26 23:27:28Z

There does seem to be a lot of family trees linked through this potential offspring of Cecily- Robert Welles is also listed on RoyaList.info under Cecily's biography for issue with John Welles. However he is recorded as having no issue so how could there be descendants to the present day? This really does need some serious study to rule this link in or out once and for all!
The author of the resource cited by MWaack is Sharon Champion and whilest indeed the marriage to Ralph Scrope is documented there is no hint of any male issue, until Richard Kyme (issue between cecily & thomas) ~ where there is potential confusion noted from another external source between a lincolshire and isle of white Thomas Kyme.
Perhaps if there was more information on the wife of the mystery Robert Welles of the initial query then the lineage may have some more substance.

Plantagenet's and De Medici's

cedeez69 — 2010-07-19 00:30:08Z

I was wondering if the Plantagenet's and De Medici's were ever related and how?

Re: John Welles and Cecily of York

ejgarison — 2010-06-24 14:27:08Z

To the previous posters, I have just this week discovered the same line in my family. My 3rd great grandmother was a Wells. It seems like there are a variety of sources online which connect him to Cecily but they offer no evidence. Burke's Peerage website: http://www.burkes-peerage.net/website ,however states that there was no male issue to John De Welles.

I myself wonder if Robert was possibly a child from her annuled marriage? If so, that would make him illegitimate and not acknowledged by the royal family. Perhaps John did "adopt" him as someone previously posted. When Cecily remarried Kyme, it has been widely reported she angered the king in doing so, and she lost all of her lands and holdings and that the her heirs by Kyme would not inherit any land or titles. This would make sense that Robert would not have inherited anything either since he was not official blood. But, that's just a theory.

It is frustrating for this conflicting information to be out there. It had to come from somewhere, just wish I could find out the source! I have been a history buff all my life and have had books on many of these Kings and pivotal people that Cicely would connect us to in my bookshelves for a long time. I was so excited when I found this connection and very dissapointed when I started to dig deeper and found this mystery.

Geoffrey Plantagenet-Ancestors & Descendants

troypix1 — 2010-05-23 02:00:08Z

For ancestors & descendants of the Plantagenet dynasty with biographical notes & photos-go to my website:
pixleyblair.tribalpages.com
Type the name you're researching into the upper right 'Find' box & click on it.
You might also be interested in the story about our Magna Carta Sureties.
From the website home page...scroll down to 'Stories' & click on 'The Magna Carta and Ancestors'.

confused... putnam / putman / de harcourt / de tourville

BarbaraSteagall67 — 2010-05-04 13:39:45Z

I have been doing this research for a while and I am confused now, I am researching the Putnam family from virginia... beginning with Thomas Putnam born 1623 in england.. problem starts with roger de puttenham and back to parents of bernard "the dane", my info does not match wikipedia or other sources..any extra info it would be appreciated...

Anne of York/Plantagenet..../Alice Howard/Katherine Norwood

hcs0501 — 2010-04-30 04:26:29Z

Sorry - I posted this in another category, but I was wondering how many people connect their ancestry from the Howards to Edward IV through Anne of York m. Thomas Howard??? Didn't Anne and Thomas' children not make it into adulthood but I've seen many family trees connect through Anne and Thomas' son Thomas as though he lived through adulthood and produced children???

Other questions about connections that seem dubious. Again, with the Howard connection, I often see Alice Howard (m. William Warriner) as Thomas Howard's daughter; however, I've seen no evidence that that Thomas Howard, or any Thomas Howard had a daughter named Alice?? Any insight?

Lastly, I've seen Katherine Norwood m. William Judd. Katherine's father is listed everywhere as Robert Henry Norwood m. Catherine Throckmorton but he appeared to have died more than a few years before she was born. Again, anyone come across this? Thanks.

Re: John Welles and Cecily of York

wadergirl — 2010-04-30 02:08:59Z

I don't know, but the source books looks to be cheap enough that I might just buy a copy and see what it says. :)

Re: John Welles and Cecily of York

MWaack — 2010-04-30 01:15:55Z

My father and I have also been discussing the interesting situation of Robert Welles(1484-1558) and the matter of how he ties into the Plantagenet line as well as the Welles line.

In the course of studying various available documents we noticed that Cecily of York was married to Ralph Scrope, younger brother to Thomas 6th Lord Scrope of Masham and Upsall, who served in the King’s household. This marriage took place between 1484 and 1485 and was annulled when Henry Tudor took the crown.

We found this information in a paper titled, ‘Not So Fortunate As Fair’: The Life of Princess Cecily Plantagenet-(which maybe accessed by following this link: www.iwhistory.com/Princess%20Cecily%20Plantagenet.doc) the unnamed author of this paper cites the source of this information as:

Horrox, Rosemary. Richard III. A Study in Service. (Cambridge, 1992) p.295.

The birth of Robert Welles- is commonly listed as 1484 or 1485. Robert Welles as has been noted in other posts here and by probably other frustrated researchers does not appear in accounts of Cecily of York and John de Welles' offspring. Nor is he acknowledged in John's will.

We would like to propose that it is possible that Robert Welles is in fact the product of Cecily of York's first (annulled) marriage to Ralph Scrope of Masham and Upsall. Perhaps, he was taken into John Welles home as an adopted son, receiving his name but not the benefits given to a blood heir.

Would anybody like to weigh in on this theory or help find documentation that might prove or disprove it?