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Help please - Cause of discharge section on WW1 Roll index cards

Help please - Cause of discharge section on WW1 Roll index cards

Posted: 27 Jul 2009 4:25PM GMT
Classification: Military
Surnames: Hill
Hi there, I was wondering whether anyone knew anything about this.

My great grandmother was in the 1st world war. His name was Charles William Ewart Hill and he lived in Irlam, Lancashire. I'm not sure which Corps he was with or his rank. What I did know was that he was hit by a mustard gas bomb during the war and was discharged and sent home. Apparently he was never the same afterwards (he acted almost childlike I'm told and this was due to what happened during the war)

I've been looking on the WW1 Roll index cards and I've found one that could be him. Charles Hill, a private in the Royal Lancashire 5th corps. I have attached the file.
I am utterly confused by all of the codes and numbers so I thought I'd ask on here.

Could this be my g,g uncle?

Re: Help please - Cause of discharge section on WW1 Roll index cards

Posted: 27 Jul 2009 4:26PM GMT
Classification: Query
When I said my great grandmother I actually meant my great grandmother's brother!
Sorry!

Re: Help please - Cause of discharge section on WW1 Roll index cards

Posted: 27 Jul 2009 4:27PM GMT
Classification: Query
Here is the file! (sorry, I'm not used to this!!)
Attachments:

Re: Help please - Cause of discharge section on WW1 Roll index cards

Posted: 28 Jul 2009 1:19AM GMT
Classification: Query
Firstly, this card is different to most WWI Medal Index Cards [MIC’s] in that it’s only for soldiers [or nurses] who received the Silver War Badge indicating they had served but discharged early because of ill-health or wounds.

All soldiers were discharged under Paragraph 392 of King’s Regulations, the reason is given in sub-paragraph. In the case of Private Charles Hill the reason was as sub-para (xvi) = No longer physically fit for war service.

Under the “392 (xvi) K.R” is another reference 2 B I and under that a “w”. I’m certain this refers to Discharges under Army Order 265/17 that relates to the issue of the Silver War Badge and the reason for discharge, as you will see the wider definition of KR 392 still applies.

Army Order 265 and para 2 b (i) also refers back to para 2 a (i), so the whole reads:

2 b Those who, having served as soldiers and being still of military age, have been discharged under the conditions set forth at (i) and (ii) in (a).

2 a (i) After service overseas in the armed Forces of the Crown, on account of disablement or ill-health caused otherwise than by misconduct.
The w [not always shown] indicating cause = wounds

It’s by no means certain as it would depend on his disability and the effect on his earning a living, but the Charles Hill the card is associated with, may have applied for a pension, especially if he had any dependants. If so you should find a record in the WWI Pension files on Ancestry, if not there’s always a chance his service records survived the WWII bombing, also on Ancestry. If nothing is found there is nowhere else to look for his service papers.

In your post your said “Royal Lancashire 5th corps”, that’s an understandable mistake for most people to make, unfortunately it has two errors – prefixed R[oyal] and Lanc, the regiment can only be The King’s Own [Royal Lancaster] Regiment and the 5th can only refer the 5th Battalion of that regiment, not to 5th Corps. This is confirmed from a search of the catalogued MIC’s at the National Archives documents online:

Medal card of Hill, Charles; Corps/Regiment: Royal Lancaster Regiment; Regimental No: 241749; Rank: Private.

Note: The “R. Lanc” should not be confused with The Lancashire Regiment [Prince of Wales’s Volunteers], formed in 1958 from the amalgamation of the East Lancashire Regiment and South Lancashire Regiment [Prince of Wales’s Volunteers].

We’ll never know why the clerk erased the original text and added “R Lanc” and from the way the L & H of “List H 1098/2” are formed compared with the R of “R Lanc” and H of “H/2/103 etc., two different people have written on the card. Unless there are problems locating his entries in the actual medal rolls at the National Archives, if you should wish to look that far, then there is no reason to worry.

From the information on the card.

The card states that Charles Hill entered service on 27 Jan 1916 [1] and was invalided out 11 Jul 1818, while serving with the 5th battalion [2] of the King’s Own [Royal Lancaster] Regiment. His service entitled him to the British War & Victory Medals and his reason for discharge qualified him for the Silver War Badge. The card doesn’t give a theatre of war he served in nor a date and as he joined much too late to have earned the 1914-1915 Star, then unless this information is shown on his entry in the SWB Roll, other than he served in France without his service record it will not be possible to establish the date with certainty.

His SWB Roll entry will be found on List H 1098/2 and the BW & Victory Medal Roll [joint roll] is given as H/2/103/B21 page 3534, both are now held at the National Archives, Kew in document series WO 329. They are not viewable online

The Silver Badge Roll reference hasn’t been used when cataloguing the SWB lists so all I can tell you is the H 1098/2 list will be in the range:

WO 329/3070 –3086 inclusive : War Office and Air Ministry: Service Medal and Award Rolls, First World War; Silver War Badge: other ranks; Infantry (Preston).
This is not enough detail to be able to order a copy from the NA.

The BW & V M roll will be found in:

WO 329/682 War Office and Air Ministry: Service Medal and Award Rolls, First World War; British War Medal, 1914-1920, and Victory Medal,1914-1919: awards to other ranks; The Kings Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) other ranks: medal rolls H/2/103B21; H/2/103B22. Pages 3367-3682. British War Medal and Victory Medal.

You could order the page with Charles Hill’s entry on via the NA’s Digital Express service. From the NA’s home page at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ , from the menu bar select “search the archives” > The Catalogue. Then at “type reference here” enter WO 329/682 click “go to reference”, then “request this” red bordered tab, select digital express click GO, the in text area enter – require page 3534 with entry for Hill, Charles; Royal Lancaster Regiment; No: 241749; Rank: Private, original roll reference from Medal Index Card H/2/103/B21 page 3534.


[1] the enlistment date is exactly the same date that ALL men of military age, not already in service, were deemed to have enlisted [i.e. conscripted], when the Military Service Act was introduced and voluntary recruitment was stopped. So I can’t say for certain it was the actual date he enlisted, with no other information to contradict the date, you have to assume it was.

[2] There were two 5th battalions of the Royal Lancashire Regiment, the first 5th [1/5th ] and the second 5th [2/5th ] and they were allocated to different Brigades & Divisions of the Army. It’s probable he served in the 2/5th that was attached to 170th (2nd North Lancs) Brigade, 57th (2nd West Lancashire) Division and landed in France in Feb 1917. The only way to be certain is check the actual British War & Victory Medal and Silver War Badge Rolls at the National Archives.

In the mean time check out the regiment’s page of the 1914-1915.net web at http://www.1914-1918.net/kingsown.htm
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